We must embrace immigration to protect our borders

It's a great idea Adam and I'd love to see it work... but it's politically very difficult.

American Citizens vote and immigrants, illegal or otherwise, do constitute a drain on some services. They compete for jobs, they compete for low cost housing, they compete for college placement and everything else.

The problem is that Joe Sixpack does not enjoy and has never enjoyed competition. No one likes to loose a job to someone else, loose a college admission slot to someone else, or loose a big break in rent to someone else.

And as we've seen time and time again, people will use every advantage they have to optimize their situation -- including the vote.

Americans will vote against immigration and have voted against it because that vote is a powerful and pervasive tool in the competitive arsenal.

Only with the threat of terrorism or some other anxiety will these preferences be changed.

@Adam

I do know that if we don't want this very same problem twenty years hence, we need to fix the root cause now, and that is our immigration quota.

No, the root cause is Mexico. If Mexico wasnt as corrupt and could support its own people, they would not need to come here like they do. Yes our immigration laws need revising, but so do many other areas like lobbying laws and actually enforcing the border. However, these laws to a backseat to the needs of the illegals. Funny how that works.

@Killfile

And as we've seen time and time again, people will use every advantage they have to optimize their situation -- including the vote.

Im sorry but isnt that the point? Why would you vote to do something that would drag everyone down to give lower wages. Competition is one thing, unfair competition is another.

The problem is that Joe Sixpack does not enjoy and has never enjoyed competition. No one likes to loose a job to someone else, loose a college admission slot to someone else, or loose a big break in rent to someone else.

Of course no one likes to lose. This is not limited to 'Joe Sixpack'. Im sure the American people appreciate you reducing their concerns to something petty and stereotype them as minor alcoholics.

Its incredible that you and others like you seem incapable of comprehending that fact that many people have real and valid concerns about how all of this is being handled and the lack of review of the impact this will have. There is also the small fact of the input by the citizens of THIS country and the lack of transparency in all these dealings.

Strange, how many of you will complain about the Iraq war and the will of the people is to leave and why wont government listen. Well, the American people are also speaking out against this immigration bill but suddenly, because you disagree, the will of the American people should no longer matter because they are just ______. (from your statements and others the blank can be filled in with racist, bigots, lazy, etc)

Do you even care there was no cost/analysis done regarding this bill by the government? Do you even care, or are aware, of the provisions in the bill the government cant even begin to live up to? Do you even care or the know the illegals receive immediate benefits, while many of the border enforcement provisions will take up to 2 years to implement and theres nothing that makes sure they are implemented and no real consequences if they are not?

The answer is most likely no. To you, America is just a bunch of racist, bigoted rednecks who cant handle a little competition.

Is immigration reform needed? Absolutely. Is this bill anywhere near what we need to have? Not in the slightest. Why is it so much to ask that this be done out in the open, with full disclosure, and we as a society, have a real and honest debate about how we want to handle this?

If Mexico wasnt as corrupt and could support its own people, they would not need to come here like they do.

I actually ride the bus routinely with a large number of Latinos, at least a few of whom are probably illegal. Judging from the soccer jerseys they wear, very, very few of them are Mexican. I see far more Salvadoran and Guatamalan, and even Peruvian, wear.

Well considering Mexico has lots of problems enforcing real laws, how hard do you think it is to buy your way through Mexico? If Mexico was stable and not corrupt where they actually enforced laws, they could prevent illegal immigration on their borders as well. However, they also know those people are not staying in Mexico but are on their way here.

Again, if we deny them access at our border they would have to stay in Mexico. At some point that will force a revolution in their country. Until that happens, it doesnt look like Mexico is going to fix itself anytime soon.

Your answer is like a squatter breaking into your house and living in a spare bedroom. Instead of calling the cops and kicking him out, you would just make him your roommate, even though you know nothing about him, his history, if hes a criminal/killer/honest/etc, if he has diseases... Thats just dumb and you wouldnt do that.

Mexico's out of control corruption and the rampant power of drug lords in their country is the first problem. We need to stop making their problems our problems. Its so bad their military personnel are leaving the military to work for the druglords. They pay better and they are safer with the druglords (who will kill those in their way) than with the military.

Here are some links you can read about it: here and here.

Please educate yourself on the real problems and situations going on. While some of the solutions may sound nice, all warm and fuzzy, there are many, many issues going on here and these solutions dont even come close to addressing the real problems and how we need to deal with them.

I dont think those qualifications quite make it the same.

And I do agree about affirmative action laws, I think their time has past and they are unconstitutional.

We do not have anti-immigrations laws. We have laws against illegal immigration and as a country, we do have the right to limit and have some controls over who comes in. Obviously you cant just let people in for many reasons. Some of which are concerning diseases, foreign plant and animal life, etc. If you are unfamiliar with such reasons, I suggest you do some reading as they can have disastrous economic, ecological, and health effects. Not to mention we dont need criminals from other countries coming here. We have plenty of our own.

A large part of the governments job is to protect you. And helping to filter out people who may have been convicted of fraud several times from entering the country and then renting your house and defrauding you is one such purpose. It is our job to then keep them in check on how far they go in such things.

Minimum wage laws Im kinda torn on.

FL Independent, what you describe there is what we had at Ellis Island, just allowing anyone sound of mind and body with no criminal background in. What we have now is radically different. I agree with Ellis Island type limitations. I do not agree with preset government quotas. My ancestors fled the potato famine, thankfully during a time when the US had no quotas for how many people from Ireland were allowed over per year.

I believe we should have a quota, but only on the total number. The country of origin shouldnt matter in regards to limits, but I think it should matter in regards to the level of scrutiny involved in background checks, diseases, etc.

What makes immigration illegal is when people come here and dont let us know in any way that they are here so we can check for certain things. We have every right to screen who comes into this country for the multiple reasons I already listed. We made that mistake in the past and it caused problems. Its called being responsible and realizing that actions have consequences. The action of people just coming in at will without screening them caused consequences we didnt like , we dont want to live with, or that we cant live with.

That protection is evolving into control.

It is not evolving into control. It has always been about control. But now we have people on both sides of the isle who have decided that they want more and tighter control than they should have. That is why we need to exert our control and only elect people who understand that. There are very few, if any in Congress, that do. The rest need to be voted out. The question is do you and others have the integrity to do it? Can you stop supporting the Ted Kennedy's of the world and put someone in worthy.

Hmmm, legal aliens and citizens are way higher than illegals on drug trafficking. I guess we should be against ourselves.

Let's CONTROL immigration and assume nothing about the immigrant.

We should verify the person's past and check for highly communicative diseases.

Australia has no neighbors with a shared border. Don't you think that changes the situation? We're not exactly overwhelmed here in the US with illegal African immigrants, for example.

A good point. Imagine for a moment trying to be an illegal alien in present-day Germany, England, or a few other countries. What is one of the differences between America and those countries as regards illegal immigration.

Answer: Just try living there and getting a job while being an illegal. In the U.S., this can be done. In those places, not so easy.

Building walls will not work. Walls keep people IN, and out. Romania and the other former Soviet satellite countries already tried controlling their borders this way a half-century ago. What happens is that people naturally find ways around, through, or over the barrier.

The U.S. has to make it virtually impossible for illegal aliens to gain anything by coming here. No housing, no registration of automobiles, no AFDC or food stamps, no schooling for their children, no jobs...with serious jail time for employers who like to go around the rules to save a buck on labor.

Harsh as it may seem, this is the only way to stop the flood. Do you think people would still attend the amusement park if all the rides were broken? End the motivation...

Yes, let's put a mark on each citizen that is required to work or trade. I don't think that will fly with a fairly influential segment of the Base, you know.

Yes, we must all rush to the most extreme end to make our point. We cant have a reasoned approach that differs than yours. The opposition only has an extreme viewpoint that must be mocked at all times.

See Adam's reply. Short of the Mark, the policy suggested in unenforceable.

No, the government supplies an easy method to verify the information. They already have such methods but they need to be streamlined and more efficient. This would not be difficult. For example, you get pulled over and the police check your drivers license number and can instantly pull up plenty of info about you.

So FL Independent, if you run the easy government check, and it comes back ok, should employers then be off the hook if it turns out the person really was an illegal immigrant? Or should they still be liable?

@Adam & Brian

No, I do not want a national ID card. However, in a sense you already have it. Its called your social security card. There is already a method to show that is it an active and valid number. It has the number and name. For every job you apply for, you must show that card and usually a drivers license at some point. As long as those 2 match, are not obvious forgeries, and there is no other obvious items that would suggest the person is illegal then you have done your job.

Adam, as for your other question I already answer in another post.

Why is it so hard for many of you to imagine a system a little more structured and enforced than what we have but way short of a police state? Why must it always be its either your way or a police state? Its ridiculous. There are many rational, reasonable positions in between.

Why do you suddenly believe the government can do this right? I seem to recall you attacking ideas for government programs in the past, arguing that government simply isn't competent by definition. Now you have a problem near and dear to your heart and all of the sudden you expect the Big Government Fairy to wave her magic wand and make it right? You are calling for an intrusive government regime that will make other big government programs look like larks.

FL Independent, what you're describing as a workable system is massively subject to fraud. The problem is right now that if you're a well meaning company, you check both pieces of ID, they look good to you, you photocopy them and file them away, and then it turns out someone is an illegal alien anyway, you are criminally liable. Companies discover the fraud lots of times when a second person uses the same social security number to get hired, and they then realize they were employing an illegal alien. They did nothing wrong, but are subject to penalties, and many people are calling for there to be more penalties for that situation.

@AA
What do you think the current immigration plan is? A big government beaurocracy. Thats going to happen no matter what. And no I dont think they can do a good job but it is their responsibility and they are going to do it one way or another so we might as well set it up right as best we can from the beginning. What I am suggesting is no more intrusive than what we are already doing. I am just suggesting we enforce laws we already have and make the systems we have more streamlined and easier to use.

@Brian
Every system is subject to fraud just as much. We might as well not do anything or remove any checks on anything if you want completely protection from fraud. And no your example is not entirely true. As I have stated over and over, the situation will dictate the penalties. If the company did all that was required and there was no reasonable expectation that the company should have known the person was an illegal and they didnt willfully attempt to blind themselves of such knowledge, the consequences would match the situation.

There have already been situations where a fraudster is hired by a company and all the background checks pass. These frauds then cause a legal situation. This the same type of situation. and existing laws already cover such instances.

Existing laws cover such instances by punishing the corporation who hired the person, regardless of good faith efforts on their part.

How did we get in this immigration mess in the first place? Ignorance of the status quo! This "Homeland Security" stuff is all a farce. Top down, the government has no way of identifying regular Americans, and even less for illegals. That is the reason we've got 12 million people in the country we know absolutely nothing about. So, let's talk ID cards and fraudulent papers in earnest. Below I propose a few scenarios for your reading pleasure.

Scenario #1 - Teenager wants to get into 21 and over club with a fake ID. Does it work? Maybe if you're in an out of the way college town or hick ville. However, try that in a more sophisticated part of the country and you're sh*t out of luck because the wealthy club owner got sick of paying his attorneys a bunch of money to get him out of underage drinking law violations. Instead, the club owner has given each of his bouncers the fool proof ID check (black light & computerized magnetic strip scanner).

Scenario #2 - Same teenager skips out to Canada for the weekend, on re-entry into the United States he is asked to show his passport, not having any he coughs up his fake ID. Lacking the necessary hardware (see scenario #1), border patrol is unable to faithfully check its validity. However, given that the teenager is accompanied by passport carrying friends and there doesn't seem to be any suspicious activity afloat...the border patrol looks the other way.

Scenario #3 - Same teen decides he's flying to NYC. But yet again, he doesn't actually have a legitimate form of ID. Can he fly? Of course he can, since he's going domestic all he is gonna encounter is a glance over by the ill-prepared, largely uneducated, glorified rent-a-cops TSA personnel. Morale of the story, E-ticket bypass and no beep machine walk through gets to the Big Apple in no time. Hell, instead of an ID check the airline only requires that you're a credit card reader verify your name, and if you only knew that telemarketers often see credit cards to toddlers.

Scenario #4 - Our teenage friend, let's call him Bobby since we've recently gotten so close, happens to lose his social security card. Now mind you, if in any of the previous scenarios he would've offered it, it would've been turned down. So he goes over to his local government office, deals with the crazy line and provides the government with some reliable paperwork for a change. However, can we know that Bobby is really Bobby? Oh sure, just look at the picture on his fake ID, looks just like him. Does the attendant check the validity of said ID? Nope! It's not important, he has a birth certificate that says he's Bobby and the system agrees that they're used to be a Bobby who was previously issued a social security card in 1989. Sadly, what she doesn't know is that Bobby isn't who he says he is. In fact, Bobby is actually Roberto who came across some unsuspecting young boy named William Robert Smith and coaxed him into lending him his paperwork for a few days. But how could anyone know such a thing...its not like your social security has any security features like a picture, magnetic strip, or just even a hologram?

@Brian

I think the law goes into a little more detail and nuance than that. Additionally, even though you may not do something intentionally, when mistakes are made there are still costs. And we may need to tweak some laws. There are plenty of laws in every area of life that need some tweaking.

So again, companies that try their best to comply with the law are punished for not being good enough in their unpaid job as immigration officers. That does not seem workable or fair to me.

Life is not fair. You can take every precaution necessary but accidents can still happen that you can be considered liable for. Why should it be any different for companies than it is for individuals? Again, if you can point to a perfect system that can be a model, please do. No system of anything is perfect and fool proof. If you feel in such circumstances that there should be no liability that can be built into the law. Its that simple.

You are just supposed to trust their backroom deals. Why should any senator have to read such important legislation before enacting into law? After all, they will never pay any consequences for their actions. They can pass whatever they want. They will make money off it somehow. Why should they care?

Do you neeed a La Tienda because they will speak spanish to you. NEWS FLASH this is AMERICA and you need to learn to SPEAK ENGLISH just like everyone else who has come to this country legally.

Why can't I speak whatever language I want? If I want to hablar espanol or madaber ivrit, is the government right to stop me? Does it hurt you to hear me speaking in a way you don't understand?

I thought Republicans stood for a small government that doesn't interfere with my personal affairs, like how I talk to my friends.

Also, consider Chinatown and Little Italy in any large American city. The people there are legal immigrants, or even native-born American citizens, but they speak mostly Chinese or Italian, respectively. Clearly "everyone else who has came to this country legally" doesn't speak English as their primary language or even at all.

Ours means people. And NO it isn't just my job or your job. We have people above us that set the job so it is also their job. And in a way we are communist because the governemnt does take some of our hard earneed money. The government steps in and tells us everything else so they can have the say on who we can hire and not hire. I mean they made the officail language English and said that illegals need to go back so y don't they GO BACK and give us some jobs back.

@adam
our means the generalization of teenagers and people looking for jobs. the Mexicans need to and would like to do the job but they need to legally get the jobs. They need to relize that there are many orhter people who need money but they can't get it because the mexicans are getting it for a cheeper dollar and hour!

As a teenager, I have hardly experienced any problems finding jobs for the summer and the school year that pay well. And yes, my area, Durham, NC, has plenty of Hispanics. My old high school was about 20% Hispanic, and within two blocks of my school there are at least three stores aimed towards Hispanic people.

I would also like to know why we grant citizenship to anyone who is lucky enough to be born in this country? If I had been born in Mexico, while my mother was there illegally, I would not be a Mexican citizen. This is the practice that has to stop.

Why? Because Section 1 of the 14^th Ammendment to the Constitution of the United States of America reads as follows:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

But sure, let's just toss out the 14^th Ammendment because you don't like "them ferners."

During World War II we put Japanese aliens (LEGAL ALIENS) in camps to keep an eye on them even though they had done nothing wrong. Now, we are letting millions of illegals come into our country during a time of war. Where is the sense in that?

We were fighting against Japan at the time. Our current war is not against any Spanish-speaking country, so the comparison is hardly valid. Also, the internment of Japanese-Americans is a dark chapter in our history, by most accounts.

Do you really consider it worthwhile to imprison millions of illegal immigrants? Feeding them, clothing them, providing water and medicine would cost billions of dollars daily. Compare this to the few million spent daily on schooling and welfare, the taxes overpaid by illegal immigrants who can't claim a refund, the taxes paid on purchased goods and additional consumers to fuel our economy, and see which proposal is more economically viable for America.

Becaues heaven forbid that hospitals, physicians, and the government try to... you know... help people.